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njdsousa
Registo: 10 Mai 2005
Mensagens: 5337
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 Colocada: Sáb Set 13, 2008 12:34 am Assunto: NL25 Middle pair OOP |
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http://www.pokerhand.org/?3183120
OK... era fold PF.
Mas partindo do principio que vamos jogar esta mão, como fazer o vilan largar a mão?
Vilan: 26/15/1 em 27 mãos
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flyerr
Registo: 16 Jun 2006
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Local/Origem: Porto
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| Colocada: Sáb Set 13, 2008 2:23 am Assunto: |
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pq nao CR flop?
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nunotg
Registo: 05 Jul 2006
Mensagens: 911
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| Colocada: Dom Set 14, 2008 1:25 am Assunto: |
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eu sei q só queres ouvir opiniões acerca de post flop, mas a meu ver o facto de fazeres call com T9o ou mãos similares nas blinds contra o utg é um erro incontornável. Algum motivo em especial para esse call?
bem, acerca do post flop, quando perguntas como fazer o villain largar a mão referes-te a quê? Uma mão que esteja à frente ou atrás da tua? É que tens que ter qq tipo de leitura pra saberes o que queres fazer. Se achas que estás à frente o call no flop não fica mal e depois reavaliares. Se queres entrar por caminhos mais complicados, do género fazê-lo foldar um overpair ou qq tipo de draw vai pro check/raise e não te esqueças de apostar o turn seja ele qual fôr. Mas isso sinceramente acho que é de tentar evitar ao máximo. |
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espanhol
Registo: 05 Dec 2005
Mensagens: 1666
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| Colocada: Dom Set 14, 2008 4:01 pm Assunto: Re: NL25 Middle pair OOP |
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| njdsousa escreveu: | http://www.pokerhand.org/?3183120
OK... era fold PF.
Mas partindo do principio que vamos jogar esta mão, como fazer o vilan largar a mão?
Vilan: 26/15/1 em 27 mãos |
check raise no flop e bet no turn e ele talvez folde.. no river ele nunca vai foldar...
mas como já foi dito essa mão nunca deve ser jogada contra o UTG oop
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joaobarb
Registo: 29 Mai 2006
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| Colocada: Seg Set 15, 2008 12:42 am Assunto: |
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Fold preflop.
Check-fold flop.
Check-fold turn.
Check-fold river. |
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speedas
Registo: 13 Fev 2007
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addict
Registo: 11 Fev 2007
Mensagens: 1055
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| Colocada: Seg Set 15, 2008 12:28 pm Assunto: |
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| joaobarb escreveu: | Fold preflop.
Check-call flop.
Check-fold turn.
Check-fold river. |
FYP.
Check-raise no flop é que nunca. |
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joaobarb
Registo: 29 Mai 2006
Mensagens: 289
Local/Origem: Porto
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| Colocada: Seg Set 15, 2008 3:05 pm Assunto: |
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| addict escreveu: | | joaobarb escreveu: | Fold preflop.
Check-call flop.
Check-fold turn.
Check-fold river. |
FYP.
Check-raise no flop é que nunca. |
Check-call flop OOP com 2º par contra raise Utg, sem ao menos um BFD, é penoso. |
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njdsousa
Registo: 10 Mai 2005
Mensagens: 5337
Local/Origem: Aqui perto!
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| Colocada: Seg Set 15, 2008 4:36 pm Assunto: Re: NL25 Middle pair OOP |
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Obrigado pelas respostas...
Eu tenho uma pequena read dele pois vi-o ir até ao fim 2 vezes com mãos similares (AQ perdeu para 33 pois não bateu nada na board; e AK ganhou a 99 com K no river)...
| espanhol escreveu: | | check raise no flop e bet no turn e ele talvez folde.. no river ele nunca vai foldar... |
Seguindo esta linha contra este tipo de jogador, quais os valores correctos para estas aposta? CR do valor do pot no flop e 2/3pot no turn? Menos?
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kitten77
Registo: 19 Fev 2006
Mensagens: 5250
Local/Origem: Santo Tirso
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| Colocada: Seg Set 15, 2008 4:49 pm Assunto: |
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oop nunca são bons spots para bluff's...
se ele está fortíssimo só tem que jogar em call mode para te levar a stack toda...
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CmonPT
Registo: 11 Mar 2007
Mensagens: 101
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| Colocada: Seg Set 15, 2008 5:02 pm Assunto: |
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Agora que a "porcaria" já esta feita e já, vamos aproveitar o facto de estarmos oop e mandar-lhe 3 barriladas não ?
Bad idea ? |
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njdsousa
Registo: 10 Mai 2005
Mensagens: 5337
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| Colocada: Seg Set 15, 2008 5:19 pm Assunto: |
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OK 
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Santiz
Registo: 04 Mai 2008
Mensagens: 153
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| Colocada: Seg Set 15, 2008 5:22 pm Assunto: Re: NL25 Middle pair OOP |
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| njdsousa escreveu: | | Eu tenho uma pequena read dele pois vi-o ir até ao fim 2 vezes com mãos similares (AQ perdeu para 33 pois não bateu nada na board; e AK ganhou a 99 com K no river)... |
Com esta read, não me parece que este seja o villain nem o river certo para barrilar mais uma vez. |
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njdsousa
Registo: 10 Mai 2005
Mensagens: 5337
Local/Origem: Aqui perto!
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| Colocada: Seg Set 15, 2008 5:28 pm Assunto: Re: NL25 Middle pair OOP |
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| Santiz escreveu: | | njdsousa escreveu: | | Eu tenho uma pequena read dele pois vi-o ir até ao fim 2 vezes com mãos similares (AQ perdeu para 33 pois não bateu nada na board; e AK ganhou a 99 com K no river)... |
Com esta read, não me parece que este seja o villain nem o river certo para barrilar mais uma vez. |
Eu estava a falar de fazer CR no flop e apostar no turn... pois se ele não foldasse no turn, com aquela read, é claro que estava batido no river!
É que fazem-me isto várias vezes... mas eu normalmente não o consigo fazer!!
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gravessen
Registo: 31 Out 2005
Mensagens: 363
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| Colocada: Seg Set 15, 2008 6:12 pm Assunto: Re: NL25 Middle pair OOP |
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| njdsousa escreveu: | | Santiz escreveu: | | njdsousa escreveu: | | Eu tenho uma pequena read dele pois vi-o ir até ao fim 2 vezes com mãos similares (AQ perdeu para 33 pois não bateu nada na board; e AK ganhou a 99 com K no river)... |
Com esta read, não me parece que este seja o villain nem o river certo para barrilar mais uma vez. |
Eu estava a falar de fazer CR no flop e apostar no turn... pois se ele não foldasse no turn, com aquela read, é claro que estava batido no river!
É que fazem-me isto várias vezes... mas eu normalmente não o consigo fazer!! |
nestes niveis porque é que não esqueces os check raises com middle pair e os 3 barris sem ser por value?
eu fazia-te um desafio... jogas 10k mãos de ABC poker, onde te preocupas a jogar em poisção... jogas as boas mãos de forma agressiva fazendo value bet, e fazes check raise quando realmente tens boas made hands ou nut draws.
o teu bluff serão as cbets... e contra regulares que tenham baixo fold a flop cbet podes mandar o 2 barril quando ele checkar o turn.
depois ves o resultado... sinceramente em nl25 não é preciso ser mto criativo, acaba-se por cometer imensos erros ao tentar fazer movimentos que os donks não respeitam e depois isso nota-se no winrate, e acabas por perdes nesses movimentos o $ que fizeste com os teus sets, str8s, Flushes..
pensa nisso...
Se tiveres paciência para ler e achares que podes retirar daqui alguma coisa deixo-te aqui um post que o citizenwind escreveu no CR
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On Crushing Micros -- LONG
After taking a few month hiatus from poker, I came back to 10NL (and down from 100NL) with the intention of absolutely crushing it. My first time through the limit, I won only a modest 5bb/100, which was pretty weak, and my game was full of holes. Still, people kept shipping me money, so eventually I was able to move up, though often struggled from a lack of fundamentals. Before moving up through the limits again, I wanted to make sure my game was shoring up its leaks.
I recently read a post from Verneer asking why people were struggling at the lower limits, something that we all of have done or are still doing. Surprisingly, going through 10NL and 25NL has really opened up my eyes and made me reassess a lot about my game, and I wanted to share some of the strategies and thoughts I've had so far on beating the lowest limits of poker. Some of this is rehashing information you may already know, and some of this might be new to you.
Please keep in mind that I'm not claiming any of this is absolute fact, and there are probably some important points missing or skewed. I'm definitely not an expert at the game, but articulating some ideas really helps me understand them better as well, and I hope someone can learn from this.
1) Your margin of victory is thin.
If you're beating a game for 3ptbb/100, or 6BBs per hundred, think about of what is in terms of raised pots. You're basically staying two uncontested raised pots ahead of your opponents, a very small amount. If you're beating it for 10BBs, that's about a flop bet and a turn bet ahead, and if you're crushing the game for 20BBs, that's a little less than a showdowned pot.
That is to say, even one mistake over your hundred hands really hurts your hourly earn. If you call check-raises to re-evaluate on the turn a hair too often, or simply cannot fold top pair top kicker, you're going to be wildly hurting your winrate. Even raising too loose, too often and getting 3-bet twice per hundred hands is equal to losing 7BB over a hundred (though you do get EV from image, but that's another post completely).
What I'm trying to say is that each play is very important to your bottom line and needs to be taken seriously, and very single BB needs to be maximized from every hand. This is not to say you need to be looking for complicated squeezes of turn bluff-checkraises, but that you choose the most sensible lines and bet sizes versus your opponent's range to extract, and you need to fold the moment you think you're beat and don't have odds to draw. And you need to do this thousands of times a day over four times as many streets. If you can do that and be only marginally creative, you can make six-figures or more a year.
In street fighter, some of the best players in the world aren't insanely creative and deceptive, they're the workhorses who can do the exact moves they need to. They can do complicated things when the rare opportunity arrives, but otherwise they are just insanely robotic. They have precise control. Exhibit this everytime you play. Don't be irrationally aggressive. Don't get stubborn and call down a LAG's three bets with middle pair. Each bet is a large percent of your winrate, and you need to always remember that.
And for god's sake, don't tilt. There is nothing worse than working up 6 buy-in's all week only to monkey it off because one guy coolered you and you need to take revenge on six other tables by playing 34 / 25 / infinity.
2) Folding All Marginal Situations
MikeyPatriot posted this gem on 2+2:
"The more experience you acquire, the more able you will be to handle marginal situations. This can definitely add a BB to your winrate. However, as other posters have made note of, they aren't that important! If you have a hard time in marginal situations, you will save yourself money and frustration by keeping yourself out of them. Fold QJo on the button if everyone has limped to you and you don't want to raise, but don't want to call. It may not be optimal (and I may get flamed for suggesting it), but when you enter a pot, you're potentially risking your whole stack. The marginal EV you gain playing the hand isn't worth the risk if you'll get stacked a bunch when you hit top pair."
In Daut44's 20-tabling video, Ryan plays incredibly conservatively, throwing away overpairs on c/r'd baby boards, refraining from c-betting on miss boards, and otherwise keeping out of any sort of trouble. While he surely is getting bluffed and pushed off of superior hands on occasion, his profit comes from extracting maximum value with big hands. Playing incredibly straightforward, he still manages 3.75ptbb/100 at FR 200NL. I think this strategy is optimal for microlimit play, where players are more "calley" and "passive" than "bluffy." [Sounds like we've talking about the seven poker dwarves here...]. The focus should be on not trying to push players off weak hands, but on extracting the maximum with big pairs and sets.
Obviously, an occasional marginal calldown or bluff is correct if you're very confident in your read, and will add greatly to your winrate. But the fact of the matter is, throwing away a lot of hands and playing super standard will get you the money even at limits twenty times higher than 10NL, where supposedly the players are much stronger. Even cutting back on c-betting is worthwhile, especially out of position and in 3-bet pots.
While MikeyPatriot's example of folding QJo on the button is pretty extreme, it does illustrate a point. Many marginal situations you get into are usually neutral EV. Some of the time, your opponent is bluffing, and you win the pot plus his bluff. Other times, you make a bad call (and want to punch yourself in the face) and lost the pot plus his value bet. So you'll win or lose about the same amount if it's a coinflip. Obviously, if the villain is particularly tight, you want to be inclined to fold. If they're spewy, you want to call.
But without a specific read, folding every single questionable spot will not significantly cost you in the long run. In fact, if you aren't a spectacular hand reader, folding every time will SAVE YOU MONEY. This is extremely applicable at the microlimits, where players are somewhat erratic and it's hard to make a read. Folding is your friend. Say it with me. Folding. Is. Your. Friend.
Don't worry about getting run over -- you'll be extracting so much value when your opponent is way behind, that folding consecutive small pots won't hurt much. Let's say you're playing OOP against a loose, aggressive player who c-bets the majority of time and double-barrels every he suspects weakness. You call his raise from the BB with 88, and the board comes K32r. When he bets, you pretty much have to fold, knowing he's going to fire the turn as well. You're going to have to fold very often here, losing -2.5BB each time from calling PF.
But now imagine the board comes K82r. He bets 6BB and you flat, knowing he's going to bet the turn regardless of what falls. On the turn, he bets 15BB into the 19BB pot, and you move in on him. Let's say he folds every time. You've netted 24.5 BB total. Now, look at the odds of flopping a set -- it's 1 : 7.5. If you lose 2.5 and gain 24.5 every time the action plays out like this, you're getting 1 : 9.8 against this overaggro opponent, or about 2.5ptbb for every 7.5 flops you see with underpairs.
While this is an oversimplified situation, it does show that always throwing away your hand in this marginal spot will still get the money. Occasionally, you'll c/r favorable flops and get a fold. Sometimes your opponent won't double-barrel, and will call or fold a value bet on the river. Sometimes your opponent will call your turn c/r and lose (or cooler you). But the point is, if you're 12-tabling and always folding here, you're not making a mistake because the value you gain will be greater than the BBs you give up by folding.
3) Whore your HUD.
One time when sweating a friend, I was surpised to see that his HUD wasn't "tricked out," and he only had VPIP, PFR, total aggression, and # of hands.
Look. PokerAceHUD is like a divine gift from the poker gods. Why on earth you would use it to less than it's full potential? It lets you read through someone's soul, and isn't that the point of using it? Don't you want to 5-bet bluff someone on a JJ7 board? Well, maybe you're not going to "pull an Ivey" with it, but...
Recommended stats to have up for 6-max:
VPIP / PFR: The big daddy of all stats, the VPIP and PFR are the easiest stats to examine to tell if your opponent is a donkey. According to Muddywater, 18/16 is near optimal for TAG 6-max play, though other instructors on the site also play and recommend a looser style. The more advanced you are -- that is, the better you are at playing marginal holdings -- the looser you can play, though anything above 24 / 20 is probably too aggro for the microlimits. Any opponent over 40 VPIP is definitely too loose, and you should seek to play them in position with much better cards. Against a total maniac, patience is the key: premium hands have such a huge preflop edge over a maniac's range that you'll totally gut the villain when you make top pair.
Total Aggro: This is a good all-around guide to responding to an opponent's aggression. Aggression is calculated by the (bet % + raise % / calling %), and gives you an idea on how the opponent is playing their medium strength hands and if they're trappy. Obviously, a good player is going to be raising strong hands often, but if their aggression is very high (5.00+), it means that they're also raising draws and pushing strong hands very fast. The more aggressive an opponent, the more likely you should be willing to commit with TPTK and overpairs on a drawish board. If an opponent is very passive (1.20 or less), that means they're bluffing and semi-bluffing rarely, and that your standards for committing should be very high if facing a raise. For example, while against a player with an aggression of 12.00 you might be willing to stack off with AA on a 58T flop, you should be very reluctant to get it in against a player with an aggression factor of .7.
Fold Continutation Bet %: The lower this percentage, the looser the villain. 80% is probably about right -- anything near 90-100% means the opponent is too straightforward, and anything less means you're getting called down marginally. Additionally, the higher this percentage, the less you should value bet marginal hands and double-barrel. Inversely, the lower this percentage, the more liberally you should value bet. Double-barrelling gets tricky, especially out of position, because you don't know if you can blow your opponent off even 22. I think when you're in position and have not made a hand, you should be c-betting at about the same rate your opponent is folding. That is, if your opponent is never folding to a c-bet, you should probably only bet when you suspect you are ahead. If they fold 40% of the time, you should bet at the top 40% of c-bettable flops, like J32r or 339r. Additionally, semi-bluffing is much less profitable when the opponent doesn't fold, so in position you can often just take a free card and hope that your opponent's passive play lets you take the whole pot.
Bet River %: Though this requires a higher sample size to be effective, Bet River is usually a good idea of how often your opponent is bluffing you, not just on river, but in general -- it is rare that you'll find a player who is willing to bluff at the river 60% of the time but will not bluff any other street! Ideally, this number should be between 25-30%, so anything much higher or lower will reflect your opponent's tightness accordingly. If the number is much lower, then you should probably be folding all but your very best holdings. If it is much higher, it means that either your opponent is value betting too thinly (TPBK or MP), or that they're outright bluffing. Mainly, this stat is useful in marginal situations that are neutral EV when readless, and will tilt your decision in either direction. Also, if your opponent bluffs often, consider checking strong hands on a blank river and calling any bet, particularly if an obvious draw didn't come in. That's a really important line that many players overlook. Check that river! Call that bluff!
Cold Call Preflop: The higher this number, the wider the range of hands you are being called with preflop. When this number is less than 1%, it means that you're being flatted by mostly pocket pairs ... most other hands will be reraising you. When a tight player has a a low cold call percentage, it means that you can fire multiple barrels more often when a high card comes as they'll have a tough time calling with PPs, and that you should be more likely to not fire at baby flops when smooth called. Cold call frequency is also a good gauge of how aggressive a player is preflop, particularly with stronger high-card hands. Sample size issues apply.
4) Playing straightforward preflop ... with twists.
There are a lot of posts telling you not to bluff, to value bet thinly, and to play really basic TAG style. While this will get you the money, it will not maximize your winrate or make you a better overall player. There are quite a few regulars at these limits who won't give up their cash easily: in my database, there are at least 60 FTP regulars playing between 11/9 and 24/14, and I get two or three of these players at almost every table I sit in. Don't just focus on idiots throwing their cash at you. Be willing to wrestle it out of other players' hands!
While playing your hands strictly for value will beat loose/passive or maniacal players, you'll only have a moderate to small edge against the tight players. Because they are also multi-tabling most of the time, you MUST be willing to open up against them. My PT stats are like 18/15/3.3, but much of that is polarized by table. Very often, I'll have a few tables where I'm playing sLAG (24/20ish), and on some I'm a total rock (12/9). This isn't a random anomaly of hand distribution, but rather it's a purposeful effort to open up against tight blinds or repeatedly isolate loose players. Look at the game conditions and change your style accordingly. This will get you the money in the long run, and make you a better player in the process.
Things to look for when opening up:
A) A loose player on your right who limps often with a high fold to c-bet percentage. This is your optimal opponent. From late position you should be isolating very often. Anything you'd normally raise, raise as if your opponent never limped and add in a few more hands. I'll raise any suited ace, K9s+, and even a lot of suited one-gappers like J8s. Your goal is to get a heads-up flop in position where you can c-bet at every flop. This is profitable because everytime you both miss, you'll win the pot, everytime they hit big you can get away on the cheaps, and everytime you both hit, you'll be playing better cards and can extract.
B) A loose / aggessive opener on your right. You have to be willing to 3-bet lightly against aggressive opponents. If a decent multi-tabling 19/14 keeps raising your blinds, or raising from the CO while you're on the button, fire back. You'll successfully resteal a high percentage of the time and be setting yourself up for getting called lightly. If you're getting called lightly, your opponent is opening themselves up to folding a lot of flops when you c-bet, or being far behind your range when you're 3-betting legitimately. I know most people recommend never 3-betting lightly at these limits, but a lot of your profit comes from identifying the decent players who aren't paying close attention and pounding on them. In terms of winrate, if you can get a player to call your 3-bet and fold on the flop just once, that's like 5.5ptbb. That's enormous.
C) Very tight blinds. Do you know a rock when you see it? Chisel freely. If you're not getting 3-bet, keep opening up until you do, then tighten up moderately. While 20-25% is a good place to start with your stealing percentages, you can bring it as high as 40% against many nits. Nits are not rare at all, and are often just as profitable as fish over the long run, though simply not as spectacularly: you may not stack a nit over very few hands in a wild raising war, but you can still grind 100 BB's out of a regular over enough hands. Same result, different method. Do not miss this profit!
D) Your skill level against your opponent's. Echoing back to MikeyPatriot's comment on marginal positions, the worse your opposition is, the more you can open up. But if you're constantly being outplayed or being put into uncomfortable positions, tighten up and let your cards mostly play themselves ... or stand up from the table!
5) How to use Poker Tracker
While I could try and do a comprehensive write-up on this, I've already been beaten to the punch by legendary 2+2 poster, Pokey:
http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4946669&an=0&page=0#Post4946669
There one change I'd make for 6-max NL play. Under "Are you positionally aware?" Your UTG raising range should be around 11% or slightly more, and your button raising should be closer to 33%. So instead of being twice as loose on the button than UTG, be three times as loose.
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So anyway, I hope some of these thoughts help out people struggling with the micros. If you just skimmed through, basically I advocate folding all marginal postflop situations, adapting your style to how tight or loose your opponents are and your position to them, maximizing your software, and remembering how much every decision affects your hourly earn.
Hope ya'll run good, and see you at the tables. Try to remember this post and not take all my money. |
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